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Post by muskie on Jan 11, 2007 14:02:31 GMT -5
As a member of the community and a wrestling fanatic, I think that we need to make the JV teams more important. It is obvious that most teams can't even field a full line up, but maybe, just maybe, if we put more time and effort into JV teams the Varsity teams might produce a better product. As a parent it is sad to see the future look so dim for many wrestlers in this community when JV is taken so lightly. If it doesn't improve there might cease to exist the need for a JV team which will give the district just another reason to cut back on school sports and save a little money. If you don't use it you lose it - CCSD Philosiphy. So, I am asking any coach who reads this, please, pretty please with sugar on top, help the future of wrestling by doing the job the district is paying you for, or they might not be paying you for long.
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Post by crossface on Jan 11, 2007 14:28:31 GMT -5
JV wrestling has many obstacles: 1. Wrestling is a tough sport, and its hard to show up every day and get pummled 2. Christmas break falls right in the middle of the season, Fringe kids jump ship because there is little interaction with the TEAM other than practice (Ie: its an easy time to quit!) 3. JV tournaments are a difficult thing to host. a. You can only charge schools $10-12 for each wrestler (if a school has 20 JV kids, then the JV tourney costs more than a Varsity Tourney) b. The officials charge you about $8-10 per wrestler c. If you have less than 100 jv kids show up...you LOSE money 4. There are not enough coaches at schools to handle Varsity and JV teams at the same time?? (should be an EASY Fix) Now all this being said, its not going to be too hard fix EXCEPT for the officials. If the officials are not willing to work a JV event for a Flat $40-$50 then I propose using coaches to officiate the matches. This is without a doubt the biggest obsticle in JV wrestling, THE COST OF THE OFFICIALS. There is no real payoff for these officials to get better and make it to the varsity level because the pay VS. the time at the JV level is GREAT! This also Causes BAD VARSITY officials It is an absolute travesty when JV officials make more $$$ than Varsity Head Coaches? ?(not many, but there are a few that get a ton of assignments)
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Post by muskie on Jan 11, 2007 15:26:05 GMT -5
Please don't take offense but I have been told that, even though it is meager, JV coaches do get paid. So like any job, including mine, there are some responsibilities, right? So, numbers 1-4 are just excuses. Would you like to hear the excuses I could give my boss-No. It is this kind of attitude that will keep the JV programs at the current status quo. There must be a responsibility that coaches must make, especially when I see a team like Palo, and Mojave who reside rich and poor neighborhoods have a full squads. And they both wrestle over the Christmas break. People getting paid more that other people means nothing. JV tournaments should be the easiest things in the world to host. JV wrestlers don't need all the glitz and glamor of Varsity, just a little 50 cent medal or piece of paper. Charge the teams one price and have coaches officiate. Make the periods shorter divide up the mats, just get them matches and I am sure they will stay. How is it that basketball and girls soccer have better turn outs than boys wrestling. Maybe Mojave and Palo or even C-M can hold a meeting on how to keep JV kids.
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pinu2
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Post by pinu2 on Jan 11, 2007 15:36:23 GMT -5
It goes even deeper than JV. Many of the High School coaches don't even come close to being able to commit the time it takes to have a quality program. In Las Vegas, the strongest programs such as Mojave, Vegas, Green Valley, Palo Verde and Cimarron have coaches who have enough support to field a JV, AND youth/middle school team. This not only takes coaches but also strong parent support. There is no question that each of these programs have key people within their organization (Green Valley, Kieth and Julie Berta; Mojave, Steve and Bob Blanner; Las Vegas, Bobby Ozuna and Scott Hocker; Cimarron, Scott Ashjian and Randy Aleman and Palo, Marty Barrett and a few others) who provide not only a strong youth/summer program but also a key fund raising group for these programs. These schools also wrestle a good part of 9-10 months, maybe more during summer and off season times which allow their wrestlers crucial mat time in order to be at the highest competitive level. Spring Valley and Gorman have shown a more recent commitment to these programs and it is showing on the mat (currently both undefeated in the Sunset southwest division). Hats off to Fred Meyers and Coach Fields. One last thing, the time and organization required to compete at the level of intensity these programs run is unbelievable, many times this is what drives coaches away from the sport because they either have to devote time to the program or their families and one of the two is always going to suffer at the expense of the other. While officials are of course key to wrestling overall, the backbone of any program is commitment from parents to allow coaches to run a quality program. We all need to get out and volunteer whether it is in youth programs, booster clubs or whatever it takes to help these coaches, help OUR kids.
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Post by muskie on Jan 11, 2007 15:54:57 GMT -5
Good post. I guess it takes a little luck. I'm from another state and though wrestling isn't that large there, there is a following and larger community. If there is any kind of coaches association here and they have meetings, I suggest that they should try to help some of the weaker schools. Give them some advise. One suggestion is that every school host one JV tournament. Any style any way. The more creative the better. freshmen only, soph only, junior only, takedown only, quitters only, indiv., dual, all-star. tag team, whatever will get kids out, by the way the last suggestion was a joke. Competition breeds competition and there doesn't seem to be enough of it in the Valley for the JV then everyone wants to pick on the better teams and complain.
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pinu2
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Post by pinu2 on Jan 11, 2007 16:23:27 GMT -5
Wow, for someone who is asking for something, I don't understand why saying parent support and volunteers are crucial to providing a quality program would be a joke. Let's say each school does a JV tournament, who is going to do pairing, work the tables, scoring, concessions, head table? Students? maybe, do you think maybe they might need an adult to supervise what needs to be done? How will the coach tend to business on the mat and run the tournament? I suggest you ask the coaches at these programs and see what they say. Then go to Canyon Springs, Desert Pines, Arbor View and a few other, not so strong programs and ask their coaches if they have that same Parent support. Ask them how much it costs to fly the team to Disney Duals in Florida, or spend a week in Reno or California for summer camp and how did they get the money to do these things? Ask them how many summer tournaments they did and have they ever wrestled anywhere but Las Vegas. Ask them how many summer matches their kids have under their belt before the regular season starts. Ask them if their kids went to summer camp, and while you're at it ask them how much all this cost and did they just walk into their administrators office and they said "sure here's 3 or 4 grand for you to spend on whatever you feel like"! Then, I wonder, if you can say Parent support is a joke.
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Post by lancerfan on Jan 11, 2007 16:35:53 GMT -5
The better teams will always have bigger JV programs, kids like to be associated with a winner. Part of the problem at the weaker schools is kids do not want to be associated with a losing program so if they are not on the varsity they walk away. Muskie has a point that the community as a whole has to be more creative in attracting kids to the sport. Ultimate fighting is very popular right now and wrestling is a big part of the needed skill package. High schools are offering the chance to learn this skill for free. This could be a recruiting tool at some of these weaker schools or all schools. Most of the coaches are teachers so they do not make a lot of money. They supplement their incomes by coaching. Most more than one sport. This makes concentarting on wrestling year round hard. Very few of them have the single sport focus of KC , Coach Mumm or Coach Nakajima? (sorry for the spelling coach) here in the north. But that does not make them bad coaches. They coach the kids who come out and stay out. JV wrestling is the life blood of the sport at this level. A kid can start wrestling as a freshman and become very good wrestler by the time he is a senior. A couple years on JV is a key to this happening. Some teams with small squads press first year wrestlers into the varsity to fill wieghts. A lot of these kids do not come back after being pummled for a year or they quit when they can not get a varisity spot in the second season due to weight changes. In the north there are a good number of JV tournaments capped off by a mythical JV championship at McQueen every year. The better schools also send there JV to the smaller varisity tournaments. There are only so many skilled youth wrestlers per school so the programs that can attract and hold on to their JV kids should have an advantadge over time.
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Post by lancerfan on Jan 11, 2007 16:37:54 GMT -5
pinu2 he said tag team wrestling was a joke not parent involvement
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pinu2
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Post by pinu2 on Jan 11, 2007 20:07:58 GMT -5
Lancerfan, I think you're right, I missread Muskie's post! Thank you for pointing that out, my apologies to Muskie.
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dunn
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Post by dunn on Jan 11, 2007 20:16:41 GMT -5
First of all - Great topic and discussion. These types of discussions always interest me more than who's going to win a weight class, or who's better than who.
Here is my two cents:
JV wrestling is very weak, but that is understandable because a lot of varsity programs are weak as well. Here are a few things I think can help develop overall teams:
1. It all starts with coaching. I am a firm believer in this. The better programs have depth in their coaching ranks. This allows them to split the varsity and JV so they don't necessarily practice together all of the time. That is how it should be. The two levels obviously learn and progress at different speeds. I know some schools like Cimarron and Mojave have two separate wrestling rooms. That is a great system.
2. Another thing the good teams do is recruit Football players to wrestle. A key element to this is to have wrestling coaches who are also football coaches. I know this is the case at Cimarron, Mojave, Palo and Las Vegas. Coincidentally, those 4 teams all have 75+ kids in their programs. Some coaches balk at this and insist on wrestlers be one sport athletes. I think that is crazy. As coaches we should want the very BEST athletes to come out for the sport. In order to do that, you need the football and track athletes. Of Mojave's 14 starters, 10 of them are 3 sport athletes. Look at Spencer & Mitchell from Cimarron. Both are great athletes, and wrestling is definitely their SECOND sport. By changing sports from season to season, it also prevents burnout.
2. A third key component to developing and maintaining a quality JV program is competition. The kids have to have something to shoot for. Once again, Cimarron, Mojave, & Palo all send their JV teams to Varsity tournaments all the time. This accomplishes two things - gets them better and gives them a sense that they too are important and good enough to compete at the next level. The state of Utah takes it a step further. They allow each team to enter a Varsity and JV squad into their state qualifiers. Each team has the abilty to qualify two kids per weight. That is a great way to grow and keep strong JV teams.
I'm not saying Cimarron, Palo, Mojave and Las Vegas are perfect models on how to build a program, but young coaches can definitley learn from things that do work. These programs do a lot of things alike. Last week at the Palo Verde Duals, Mojave beat Cimarron in the finals. Mojaves "C" team took 4th. That is how you get better, you have depth after depth after depth. Coaching wrestling is a lot like actual wrestling. The harder you work, the more you win. I had a friend who used to wear a shirt that said, "The harder we work, the luckier we get". That pretty much sums it up.
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Post by consumedone on Jan 12, 2007 2:11:25 GMT -5
Okay, my turn.....
Every great program starts with a committed coach, strong parental support and a core group of kids with a whole lotta heart. Wrestling is the toughest sport by far and parents need to encourage their wrestlers EVERYDAY and EVERY NIGHT during the season. I am also a firm believer that if your kid wants to sign up for a sport (ANY SPORT), a parent needs to explain to that kid that once you sign up, quitting is not an option. I HATE THAT!! When a kid quits, they're letting down a coach, a parent and an ENTIRE TEAM. All wrestling fans know the type of life skills and integrity our kids glean from wrestling. The psychological toughness of the sport alone, gives our kids that little extra OOOMPH to get through life. While a majority of wrestling parents do understand the time, fortitude, tenacity and committment it takes to build a strong team, you do have those that simply cannot handle it. They whine about why, they whine about where and they whine about who, etc. Then the inevitable - their kids quit. That's all fine as everyone has a right to walk away, but my opinion? GET OFF THE MAT, OUT OF THE ROOM, and DON'T bother waiting until Christmas break when the teams have solidified! There is nothing more intolerable than a wrestler who comes to practice WHEN he feels like it, makes weight IF he feels like it and MAYBE, if the team is lucky enough, he MAY even show up at a big tournament long enough to go two and out!!
Now. For the REAL wrestlers, I think it would be really cool, if the bigger tourneys i.e., Sparks Invitational, Douglas Duals, Capitol City Duals, etc. would turn these tournaments into 2 day tournaments so that every participating school could bring JV and Varsity wrestlers, obviously the powers that be would have to support this too. But in so doing, a few selling points would be 1. A unified team; 2. Parental support; 3. A whole lot of money (fundraiser) for the host school; and 4. The officials show up for two FULL days instead of two FULL hours. There really isn't a need to segregate the two teams..... we don't do it for duals. They are ONE team. Think about it, the mats are ALREADY out, so why not?
Wrestling by nature is a very expensive sport. However, if the need exists, there WILL be a way. I have yet to see a wrestler with a whole lot of heart and commitment be turned away by his fellow teammates and their parents because of money issues. Either the coach has the team fundraise, the wrestlers raise the money on their own, or other parents/the community steps up to the plate.
If Nevada doesn't improve the quality of the venues of competition for the JV, I would have to agree, we will lose the programs due to lack of interest. This is a complete injustice to the wrestlers who are unable to break the Varsity lineup because of the caliber of wrestlers in that lineup as well as the guys who want to learn. Sure, for the majority of "ConsumedOnes" we will travel and take wrestlers with us. However, JV programs are a huge foundational tool that are sorely neglected, but it doesn't have to stay that way.
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Post by lancerfan on Jan 12, 2007 7:23:34 GMT -5
This is the best discusion I have seen on this board. I have had a couple thingytails since I got off work and am going to save this post till tomorrow when I can reread it to post. I am going to address some of the points made in the last two posts. 1. we are all "consumed ones" no parents of JV kids are on this site. Our kids wrestled through grade school and are good high school wrestlers for the most part. 2. The JV kids are not WEAK they are inexperianced. We have a third year kid at McQ who I knew and tried to get to wrestle as a youngster who recently told me he wished he had but he thought some kid would hit him with a chair if he wrestled. If he had started as a youth he would be a good varsity high school wrestler as he is pound for pound one of the strongest kids in the McQ weight program. 3. Wow two rooms!!! Untill now I thought Fallon, Douglas and Carson had an advantadge becouse they practiced twice a day. Due to Washoe's zero period no school can schedule pre school practices in Washoe. But two practice rooms? Huge advantage. No sour grapes great for them. 4. What coaches turn away wrestlers becouse they play another sport? NONE. If the kid wins the wrestle off he wrestles. There is no politics in wrestling, you win the wrestle off or you are JV. Kids should be able to compete in as many sports as possable in high school. When I was a kid if you were fast enough you could play baseball and run track at the same time and never go to a track practice except to compete for your spot on the track team and your baseball coach never had a problem with that. 5. "Now. For real wrestlers" This is part of the problem. As much as we try to promate wrestling we still think of our kids as real wrestlers and the rest as just opponents. We as wrestling afficianados need to promate other kids we notice. I met a kid in a barbershop last year who attends Sparks high. He told me he wrestled when he heard one of the barbers (an ex wrestler) and me discuss my sons wrestling. Since then when I have run across him at tournaments I have made sure to stop by and tell him I watched him wrestle and at the latest Dayton tournament I was truthfully able to tell him how much I thought he had improved in the last year. Every "consumed one" should have four or five kids from other schools that we are doing this for. 6. Wrestling is not expensive compared to other sports. My youngest son was the starting second basebaseman on the Nevada state championship 14 year old all star team that finished third at southwest regionals losing to eventual national champion southern Cal in the championship of the winners bracket 8-4. One of his bats costs more than an entire season of wrestling minus the travel but all sports travel at that level. I am not trying to trivulize what is spent on wrestling but it does not come close to some other sports. Being a single dad of modest means it is one of the reasons I was attacted to the sport.
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Post by muskie on Jan 12, 2007 12:07:55 GMT -5
I didn't mean to start a war of words, but I am impressed at how fired up people got and then started giving reasons for why they think other programs have success. "Other programs have either the best parents, a rich contributor, kids with heart or some other excuse. What teams like Palo, C-M, Mojave really have is a dream. A dream that does not except excuses. How do you think they find people to help out? They go out and get people to buy in on their dream and then invite them in to participate. I am an Enterperneur (dictionalry definition- a person who starts a business with an idea, makes it grow, and takes the risk of failure) and I have to sell my dream every day and let me tell you what, it is exhausting, defeating and just plain difficult, but that is why it's a dream, it's make believe at this point. Only I can turn it into reality, otherwise I sit and wish. If you don't go out and beat the bushes everyday you can look at other programs and say "the reason they are where they are is because they have parent support, rich investor, talented kids ect... and I don't have anything over here." How bad do programs really want a successful program? I wish that there was some "get rich quick scheme" but there isn't. I really think that every JV program should host their own tournament. Schedule the gym roll out the mats, call a couple of coaches, and ref the thing your self. Print out some certificates that show they competed, put it in the schools anouncements and see the kids beam when they hear their name because they won the Prestegious "Welcome Back Tournament" even though they only wrestled a couple times. I don't like to candy coat accomplishments, but if it will add numbers, someone in that room will get better from that kid not cashing it in early.
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Post by crossface on Jan 12, 2007 12:14:09 GMT -5
You are missing the point about officials!!!!! Without officials it cannot be sanctioned by the NIAA! Without Sanctions you have NO INSURANCE!!! OFFICIALS ARE WAY WAY TOO EXPENSIVE to justify holding JV Events.
The other things I put down in my first post, are things I have heard from EVERY coach including Mojave, C-M and Palo! Not saying its right JUST a colaboration of info on why JV type kids quit or dont come out!!!
In order to make waves we need to focus on THE OFFICIATING associations to get help. Coaches and Parents will make it happen, but losing money (Varsity trip money) is not an option!!!
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Post by muskie on Jan 12, 2007 13:07:08 GMT -5
How do you guys even have practice! Can't it be considered an non sacntioned event or something? Have you gone to your administrators and asked them. This is the point! of the blog! talk to your superintendent and ask. Aren't all schools under the same insurance? I can not except officiating as the excuse for poor JV teams. I consider you a friend and I will not allow you to do that. Tournament is just a fancy name for a practice.
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